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Lascelles
01 May 2017 23:11 Post ID: #479517
Said to be having a double hernia operation tomorrow according to the papers. He's supposed to have been playing through the pain barrier for 4 months which would explain why he seems to have went backwards.
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02 May 2017 14:04 Post ID: #479518 - in reply to #479517
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02 May 2017 18:53 Post ID: #479520 - in reply to #479517
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Toon_NoMatterWot - 1/5/2017 23:11

Said to be having a double hernia operation tomorrow according to the papers. He's supposed to have been playing through the pain barrier for 4 months which would explain why he seems to have went backwards.


If this were true it would make the managers rotation system look ridiculous,him a massive twat for not putting his players health first,and reveal that our best premiership defender 2015-16 has ironically been rafaered.

No way is it true.



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02 May 2017 20:55 Post ID: #479521 - in reply to #479520
PieMag - 2/5/2017 18:53

Toon_NoMatterWot - 1/5/2017 23:11

Said to be having a double hernia operation tomorrow according to the papers. He's supposed to have been playing through the pain barrier for 4 months which would explain why he seems to have went backwards.


If this were true it would make the managers rotation system look ridiculous,him a massive twat for not putting his players health first,and reveal that our best premiership defender 2015-16 has ironically been rafaered.

No way is it true.





It is true but because it's been managed to an extent, Lascelles played on and maybe Rafa likes that.

https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/ive-had-to-grit-my-teeth-and...
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02 May 2017 21:23 Post ID: #479522 - in reply to #479521
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Toon_NoMatterWot - 2/5/2017 20:55

PieMag - 2/5/2017 18:53

Toon_NoMatterWot - 1/5/2017 23:11

Said to be having a double hernia operation tomorrow according to the papers. He's supposed to have been playing through the pain barrier for 4 months which would explain why he seems to have went backwards.


If this were true it would make the managers rotation system look ridiculous,him a massive twat for not putting his players health first,and reveal that our best premiership defender 2015-16 has ironically been rafaered.

No way is it true.





It is true /QUOTE]

I didn't doubt it for a second.
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02 May 2017 21:49 Post ID: #479523 - in reply to #479517
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Are there different types of hernia's? Just thinking back 30 odd years when I had my first op on an inguinal hernia. I didn't have any pain, just something kept protruding between the torn muscle. But by fuck when I came round after the op I was in fucking pain and in hospital for five days.
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02 May 2017 21:56 Post ID: #479524 - in reply to #479517
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02 May 2017 22:14 Post ID: #479525 - in reply to #479517
Thoughts aside, you just know that under Parsnip or one of the other cronies we've had recently that there would have been no going through any pain barrier, more just seen as a relief for the player to swan off. So on that score, Lascelles gets nowt but credit for wanting to play a part.
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02 May 2017 22:17 Post ID: #479526 - in reply to #479517
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Thanks Piemag, it's amazing though when I had my second op a few years later the procedure was much less invasive. An overnight stay in hospital and I was back at work in a month.
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02 May 2017 22:37 Post ID: #479527 - in reply to #479517
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Was the second one in a different place though Mc ?

It is amazing how fast surgery has developed though,knee ligament operations could leave a 2 inch scar not so long ago,nowadays keyhole surgery is much less invasive and a breeze in comparison.

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03 May 2017 08:02 Post ID: #479530 - in reply to #479525
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Toon_NoMatterWot - 2/5/2017 22:14

Thoughts aside, you just know that under Parsnip or one of the other cronies we've had recently that there would have been no going through any pain barrier, more just seen as a relief for the player to swan off. So on that score, Lascelles gets nowt but credit for wanting to play a part.



I genuinely don't get where you're coming from with this toony

By his own admission the player, has been training at 50%, playing through the pain barrier and putting in below par performances and you manage to crowbar a dig in at previous managers rather than hold Benitez accountable ?!?

Lascelles has come in for a vast amount of criticism this season for his performances so the fact we have been promoted while playing an unfit player is down to good luck rather than good management

I hope to fuck that Benitez wanted a defender in the January window as that might in some way excuse a very strange decision
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03 May 2017 08:17 Post ID: #479531 - in reply to #479530
McCreery - 3/5/2017 08:02

Toon_NoMatterWot - 2/5/2017 22:14

Thoughts aside, you just know that under Parsnip or one of the other cronies we've had recently that there would have been no going through any pain barrier, more just seen as a relief for the player to swan off. So on that score, Lascelles gets nowt but credit for wanting to play a part.



I genuinely don't get where you're coming from with this toony

By his own admission the player, has been training at 50%, playing through the pain barrier and putting in below par performances and you manage to crowbar a dig in at previous managers rather than hold Benitez accountable ?!?

Lascelles has come in for a vast amount of criticism this season for his performances so the fact we have been promoted while playing an unfit player is down to good luck rather than good management

I hope to fuck that Benitez wanted a defender in the January window as that might in some way excuse a very strange decision


How is a player wanting to play for his manager a strange decision? Just saying that under previous recent managers, the players would have shied off at the first opportunity and we all know it.
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03 May 2017 08:47 Post ID: #479533 - in reply to #479531
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Toon_NoMatterWot - 3/5/2017 08:17

McCreery - 3/5/2017 08:02

Toon_NoMatterWot - 2/5/2017 22:14

Thoughts aside, you just know that under Parsnip or one of the other cronies we've had recently that there would have been no going through any pain barrier, more just seen as a relief for the player to swan off. So on that score, Lascelles gets nowt but credit for wanting to play a part.



I genuinely don't get where you're coming from with this toony

By his own admission the player, has been training at 50%, playing through the pain barrier and putting in below par performances and you manage to crowbar a dig in at previous managers rather than hold Benitez accountable ?!?

Lascelles has come in for a vast amount of criticism this season for his performances so the fact we have been promoted while playing an unfit player is down to good luck rather than good management

I hope to fuck that Benitez wanted a defender in the January window as that might in some way excuse a very strange decision


How is a player wanting to play for his manager a strange decision? Just saying that under previous recent managers, the players would have shied off at the first opportunity and we all know it.


Are you sure you are not being selective with your memories toony ?


https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/ben-arfa-playing-through-pain-a...

http://www.shieldsgazette.com/sport/football/newcastle-united/why-m...

http://www.givemesport.com/341905-newcastle-striker-papiss-cisse-to...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/alan-par...
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03 May 2017 08:48 Post ID: #479534 - in reply to #479531
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No mate.....we don't "all know it"

You're generalising for the sake of it and missing the most obvious point

You're making a big point of other players in the past taking the piss and that maybe so in some cases but there will also be any amount of cases where a player will want to play regardless and that is when the medical team steps in and makes the decisions for them

We've been playing a player for FIVE MONTHS who has been training at 50% and not playing particularly well because of it.......there are no heroes here
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03 May 2017 08:50 Post ID: #479535 - in reply to #479517
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Pretty disgraceful if true.
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03 May 2017 09:34 Post ID: #479538 - in reply to #479534
McCreery - 3/5/2017 08:48

No mate.....we don't "all know it"

You're generalising for the sake of it and missing the most obvious point

You're making a big point of other players in the past taking the piss and that maybe so in some cases but there will also be any amount of cases where a player will want to play regardless and that is when the medical team steps in and makes the decisions for them

We've been playing a player for FIVE MONTHS who has been training at 50% and not playing particularly well because of it.......there are no heroes here


Im not saying that Lascelles is a hero and ive been pretty clear in my thoughts of him over the past few weeks in that his standard hasn't been as good as it was. Just underlining my belief that Benitez is getting more than others.

Also as stated above, the injury is supposedly not that serious and something that can be put off. Moreso if the individual is the one instigating it although that is a question we cant answer yet unless it's one of those asked in the next press conference.

Could we have done without, well I reckon we could have done as we've been stronger in the position than in some recent premier league campaigns with this known before Clark missed a month and at a standard where we could have gotten away with it. Depending on when this injury was first noticed, there may also have been an option for a loan.

Hanley, Mbemba, Dummett as well as Clark for starters, is more strength than in recent years. Lascelles isn't the first player in history to play on until the job is done and wont be the last but maybe the lad felt more pressure from himself to set an example as a captain to lead.
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03 May 2017 10:15 Post ID: #479541 - in reply to #479517
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But you're saying that playing a player carrying an injury for five months (with a recovery time of between two weeks to a month) even though he wasn't playing very well and with decent cover to come in has been good management

It's been fortunate management at best
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03 May 2017 10:25 Post ID: #479542 - in reply to #479517
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Toon_NoMatterWot - 1/5/2017 23:11

Said to be having a double hernia operation tomorrow according to the papers. He's supposed to have been playing through the pain barrier for 4 months which would explain why he seems to have went backwards.


After reading through the subsequent posts, would it be reasonable to explain Lascelles going backwards as the fault of his manager toony ?
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03 May 2017 10:58 Post ID: #479543 - in reply to #479541
McCreery - 3/5/2017 10:15

But you're saying that playing a player carrying an injury for five months (with a recovery time of between two weeks to a month) even though he wasn't playing very well and with decent cover to come in has been good management

It's been fortunate management at best


I haven't. Ive been saying that it's a measure of how players seem to be playing for the manager.




PieMag - 3/5/2017 10:25

After reading through the subsequent posts, would it be reasonable to explain Lascelles going backwards as the fault of his manager toony ?


If Rafa postponed any operation on his say so because he thought we didn't have sufficient cover then id agree but I dont think he did.


Overall and without knowing the facts of why the operation was delayed, it's common knowledge that Rafa picks players on trust. The system he plays not necessarily using the best players available on an individual basis but the ones in which he thinks will do the best job on the day.

If Lascelles has offered or made it clear that he was stepping forward as a captain and with a condition that the medical people said could be managed then maybe Rafa trusted him enough to let him try. Maybe in hindsight the operation would have been done earlier but we dont know the facts yet. Some things just dont make sense although it still happens loads of times where operations are needed but are put off for the team.



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03 May 2017 11:51 Post ID: #479546 - in reply to #479517
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If Rafa postponed any operation on his say so because he thought we didn't have sufficient cover then id agree but I dont think he did.

I don't understand what you mean

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03 May 2017 12:03 Post ID: #479547 - in reply to #479546
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We got promoted and can still win the league with Lascelles as our captain.

Fantastic stuff from where we were last season.

Made a few mistakes throughout the season but so has Clark and Mbemba when played.

Question Rafas decisions all you want but he's got us back into the Prem at first time of asking.

He's not been shit despite what some fans think, he's a lot better in the air than Mbemba and better on the floor than Hanley so I can see the reasoning, in this league, for him being preferred.

Mbemba maybe preferred in the Premier League but I'm not going to criticise the manager or Lascelles for playing through the pain. It's admirable and what we were lacking last season.

Thumbs up from me
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03 May 2017 12:11 Post ID: #479549 - in reply to #479517
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"Question Rafas decisions all you want but he's got us back into the Prem at first time of asking."

I don't know what you are seeing elgorm,but i'm questioning tnmw blind devotion to Benitez therefore Ashley.

He's the one who started the thread right ?

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03 May 2017 12:15 Post ID: #479550 - in reply to #479546
PieMag - 3/5/2017 11:51

If Rafa postponed any operation on his say so because he thought we didn't have sufficient cover then id agree but I dont think he did.

I don't understand what you mean



You said 'Would it be reasonable to explain Lascelles going backwards as the fault of his manager toony ?'

Basically im saying that if it was Rafa's individual decision to delay due to having a weakened squad then id agree with that point but that I dont think it was as simple as that. Bearing in mind Lascelles already said he first noticed the issue before Xmas and the window opened and closed after that.

Lascelles said this on it:

Five or six months ago, I started feeling my groin. I thought it was a bit of tightness, or whatever, but I was really struggling with it.

Every day in training, I’d probably train at about 50% – I couldn’t really run, or use my left foot.

I spoke to the medical staff, and the manager, and it’s not something that can get worse – if you grit your teeth and manage the pain, you can get through it.

I just thought, ‘We’re in a position here where we can get promoted’, and obviously – being the captain – I wanted to be involved. The manager trusts me and he wants me to play.

I’ve had a gym programme for four or five months now – you can’t heal it, but you can manage it by doing that. I’ve focused on that every day.

I’ve probably not helped myself this season, in some areas, but that’s the sacrifice you make, and I’m willing to make it. It’s helped the team, and now I can get this sorted in time for pre-season.

It has been tough – there have been times where I have had head loss because of how painful it’s been.

Sometimes, it hasn’t done me any justice because you play how you train. If I’m in training, and I’m just jogging about, it can show on the pitch on a matchday.

Hernias can be different for different people. I think Alan Shearer once had a hernia and he managed to play nine days later. One of the young boys, Jamie Sterry, has had one and he took it really well – he trained again after four weeks.

It’s the end of the season and I can rest over the summer a little bit. The first couple of weeks, I’ll just be walking and doing a few different movements, I can’t imagine I’ll be doing anything mad.

If we weren’t already up, I’d still be trying to get through it and trying to play, but the job has been done, and now I can look after myself and better myself for next season.



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03 May 2017 13:14 Post ID: #479551 - in reply to #479517
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In summary.
Lascelles was struggling,
his form dipped dramatically,
he cost the team points,
the manager rather than use arguably the best defender in his squad decided to play on with someone who in their own words "has probably not helped myself this season"

Business as usual at NUFC, yet you try and turn it into some kind of everything is rosy in the garden exercise.



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03 May 2017 13:19 Post ID: #479552 - in reply to #479551
PieMag - 3/5/2017 13:14

In summary.
Lascelles was struggling,
his form dipped dramatically,
he cost the team points,
the manager rather than use arguably the best defender in his squad decided to play on with someone who in their own words "has probably not helped myself this season"

Business as usual at NUFC, yet you try and turn it into some kind of everything is rosy in the garden exercise.





In summary.

Rafa trusted his captain to be able to contribute.
NUFC got promoted.
Nothing has ever been rosy in the garden where NUFC are concerned.
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03 May 2017 13:24 Post ID: #479553 - in reply to #479517
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A realistic and factual summary

SDU got relegated
SDU got promoted.
SDU got relegated
SDU got promoted again

Some fans have not learned one single thing about SDU.


Fixed



Edited by PieMag 3/5/2017 13:35
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03 May 2017 14:40 Post ID: #479554 - in reply to #479553
PieMag - 3/5/2017 13:24

A realistic and factual summary

SDU got relegated
SDU got promoted.
SDU got relegated
SDU got promoted again

Some fans have not learned one single thing about SDU.


Fixed



This is no general election with fake news around to deceive people. Some get their fix out of the club with only their own personal experiences to compare with and for some, this season is the closest thing to success they've even had here.

Regardless of my, over 40 years, following experience with the lowest of lows under Ashley and the highs of the Keegan nearly years and champions league experiences that followed, I still see now with the landlord we have as a temporary stain on our history and in no way are we anything but Newcastle United no matter how much the 21st century of the game has commercialised everything.
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03 May 2017 15:31 Post ID: #479555 - in reply to #479554
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It's the constant positive spin you put on it though toony

playing a player with a double hernia for five months is not positive news....especially when said player was obviously playing below par

All credit to Lascelles for WANTING to play through the pain barrier but as you've said yourself, we had more than enough cover for him not to have to

Lascelles was directly blamed for a couple of goals conceded in the last few weeks so it could have been a massive gamble to persist with a player that was 50% fit

Edited by McCreery 3/5/2017 15:39
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03 May 2017 15:39 Post ID: #479556 - in reply to #479555
McCreery - 3/5/2017 15:31

It's the constant positive spin you put on it though toony

playing a player with a double hernia is not positive news....especially when said player was obviously playing below par

All credit to Lascelles for WANTING to play through the pain barrier but as you've said yourself, we had more than enough cover for him not to have to

Lascelles was directly blamed for a couple of goals conceded in the last few weeks so it could have been a massive gamble to persist with a player that was 50% fit


As far as im aware, the only 'positivity' from me in this is that the captain wanted to play through the pain barrier when the last one we had in Coloccini couldn't wait until his next one to get away from it. Just seems a refreshing change from what we've had.

Yes, overall it's risky but id prefer that than some of the shite we've had fed to us over the years.
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03 May 2017 15:47 Post ID: #479557 - in reply to #479517
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santa maria,señor Ashley aza cooked eez brain.
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03 May 2017 15:53 Post ID: #479558 - in reply to #479517
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Ah right, didn't understand this was the reoccurring anti-Ashley debate.

Some people, myself included hope that the arrival of Benitez could be the catalyst of change at the club.

The appointment was certainly a change in direction as far manager recruitment is concerned.

I still would like Ashley to leave and a brilliant owner to come in and take us to the next level, those owners are few and far between but we can still dream.

The jury is still out on that and I'm in no illusions that Rafa could be a smoke screen and leave when the money doesn't materialize. But at this very point I'm reasonably happy, more so than I have been in the last 10 years, I feel with the right investment and patience that Rafa is the right man for the job.

But I thought this thread was about Lascelles and whether or not he should have played with an injury.

Lots of crossed wires.

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03 May 2017 16:01 Post ID: #479560 - in reply to #479517
The anti-Ashley feeling clouds loads of opinions just as much as it has for us that have positivity instilled into us via the appointment of Rafa.
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03 May 2017 16:26 Post ID: #479561 - in reply to #479517
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I can't help feeling that anyone happy with the situation right at this moment is like a 6th former being happy he's the hardest kid in the 3rd year

Edited by McCreery 3/5/2017 16:31
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03 May 2017 16:34 Post ID: #479562 - in reply to #479561
McCreery - 3/5/2017 16:26

I can't help feeling that anyone happy with the situation right at this moment is akin to a 6th former being happy he's the hardest kid in the 3rd year


Im not happy with the situation of constantly thinking that the next shit storm is around the corner because it probably is. Maybe im just used to it now and have created a false sense of deluded satisfaction by still looking for positives.

Put it this way, Ashley must surely have learned now that to have a relative calm here means a pathway of calm towards his wallet. It's not rocket science with the scenario he has now. We just need him to be honest in his approach for once and he cant lose which I suppose if the $64 million question that we ask every time.
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03 May 2017 17:01 Post ID: #479563 - in reply to #479558
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elgorm - 3/5/2017 15:53

Ah right, didn't understand this was the reoccurring anti-Ashley debate.

Some people, myself included hope that the arrival of Benitez could be the catalyst of change at the club.

The appointment was certainly a change in direction as far manager recruitment is concerned.

I still would like Ashley to leave and a brilliant owner to come in and take us to the next level, those owners are few and far between but we can still dream.

The jury is still out on that and I'm in no illusions that Rafa could be a smoke screen and leave when the money doesn't materialize. But at this very point I'm reasonably happy, more so than I have been in the last 10 years, I feel with the right investment and patience that Rafa is the right man for the job.

But I thought this thread was about Lascelles and whether or not he should have played with an injury.

Lots of crossed wires.



There is no reoccurring anti-Ashley debate elgorm.

Equally there is no reoccurring pro-Ashley debate.

The bloke is a crook,simple,nothing to debate.

However do expect to hear his name mentioned in all matters relating to our club,he is an intrinsic part.

Crossed wires,maybe,but the intent of the thread was clear.

No mention of whether Lascelles should have played with an injury, just a possible reason/excuse for his poor form

If the story is true,it exposes crass mismanagement.

Which leads to something that is reoccurring,namely benitez drivel.

He's got the team promoted,good on him, but nothing new or spectacular in his achievement.

In his short stint at the helm it's been more or less ascertained that he does not have the power we we drip fed into believing,and that Ashley is not afraid to slap him down in public.

Grounds for optimism ?
a new dawn maybe ?

We shall see.
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03 May 2017 17:47 Post ID: #479564 - in reply to #479563
Regarding Lascelles I really don't see what the issue is . The player had a injury that he and the staff at the club felt didn't impede him from playing and could be managed accordingly. The player wanted to do so and it worked. I admire the lad's determination. A lot of players at clubs doing far better than us have niggles or injuries they are managing throughout the season with an operation or treatment to follow in the off season.

I don't think the lad's gone backwards I just think his form dropped off at the end of the season in that pre promotion wobble, there's no guarantee that was injury related it may have just been nerves or a bad spell of games (all players have them from time to time) as several players suffered from at the same time . Said a few games ago people weren't complaining about him following the away wins at Brighton and Huddersfield. Quite why people are using a successful judgement call as a stick to attack the manager I don't know.
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03 May 2017 19:37 Post ID: #479566 - in reply to #479517
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The criticism,or attack as you put i,t of the manager can be justified using Lascelles own words keggy.

"I’ve probably not helped myself this season, in some areas, but that’s the sacrifice you make, and I’m willing to make it."

"It has been tough – there have been times where I have had head loss because of how painful it’s been."

They had cover,the lad did not need to make the sacrifice.

I don't see how anyone can sensibly argue that point.

Previous managers of our club have been slaughtered for much less.

It's notable that those who were doing the slagging are now turning a blind eye to some really odd decisions of the current one.

A few short weeks ago many were seeing Huddersfield and Reading as a real threats because the team were dropping points,good job they both bottled it otherwise the successful judgement would have been exposed for what it really was.
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03 May 2017 20:31 Post ID: #479568 - in reply to #479566
PieMag - 3/5/2017 19:37

The criticism,or attack as you put i,t of the manager can be justified using Lascelles own words keggy.

"I’ve probably not helped myself this season, in some areas, but that’s the sacrifice you make, and I’m willing to make it."

"It has been tough – there have been times where I have had head loss because of how painful it’s been."

They had cover,the lad did not need to make the sacrifice.

I don't see how anyone can sensibly argue that point.

Previous managers of our club have been slaughtered for much less.

It's notable that those who were doing the slagging are now turning a blind eye to some really odd decisions of the current one.

A few short weeks ago many were seeing Huddersfield and Reading as a real threats because the team were dropping points,good job they both bottled it otherwise the successful judgement would have been exposed for what it really was.


I can sensibly argue the point. It's all about your or my point of view and the relative perception of the situation. I don't see it as an odd decision I see it as a managed situation that's been judged and dealt with effectively for the good of the team and club. Lascelles would have been routinely fitness tested and checked by club doctors and physios . It's simply a judgement call by the manager. Fine, if you felt it impaired the team it's your perception that it's bad call hence the attack on Rafa . Rafa obviously felt Lascelles even carrying an injury was a better fit for the side. It's my perception that it was a good call because we're still within a game of winning the title , we've been guaranteed promotion and Lascelles across the season (imo) has played more good games than bad and hasn't broken down missed games through further injury.

As for whether the lad needed to make sacrifice, it's his body, his career and his decision to make along with the relevant staff . As others have mentioned I'd certainly rather have players with that kind of attitude rather than certain other "characters" we've had in the past. The point made along the lines of opinion would be different if other teams had stayed the course, you're then getting into the realms of hypotheticals, which I could twist by saying well if hypothetically Gayle had stayed fit we'd have scored more goals and so on. Slam Rafa's, tactics fair enough, same with the decisions that don't work or that some of the players he bought he hardly used, but let's not lament a situation that's worked out just fine.
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03 May 2017 22:20 Post ID: #479571 - in reply to #479561
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McCreery - 3/5/2017 16:26

I can't help feeling that anyone happy with the situation right at this moment is like a 6th former being happy he's the hardest kid in the 3rd year



Ha ha cracking comment Mac. Ashley is a cunt but a lot of people seem a lot happier these days maybe its because we are winning a few games which of course we should playing in the championship, i wonder if they will be happy come the summer when Ashley shafts them again and Rafa heads for the exit. Will there be riots in the streets and a mass boycott i doubt it probably be the old support the team not the regime mantra as we struggle to stsy in the rich league.
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03 May 2017 22:57 Post ID: #479572 - in reply to #479517
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I think the point is being missed a little bit:

We're promoted.

He's had his op, and now starts his recovery - when it doesn't matter that he's out.

The op has been taken at the optimum moment, in order to have him back as early as possible, for next season.

He's not our best player (by far) anyway.

He's a single entity, in the team/squad system; not it's over-riding factor.

Rafa has a whole summer to deal with the issue.

Happy with the situation? I'm never happy when a player is injured. But the management of this, frankly, has been, and is, as spot on as you can get.
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